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The Great Gold vs Bitcoin Debate: Casey vs Matonis

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Casey is very weak in this argument You mean to tell me he does not believe that the metals market is manipulated Matonis disagreed with him referring to naked shorts of Gold and Silver My argument is cryptocurrency is purchased in fiat currency When fiat currency collapses so will the cryptocurrency Comment from : Oliver Bates

Matonis did a great job in this interview Comment from : Earej

You kept calling him "Dog" lol Comment from : Earej

all these cryptocurrencies are huge bubbles  The stupid money is coming in nowspeculators will be getting out soon  Comment from : ra wige

Ohh, no!!!  All the debates in the world aren't going to save BitCoin now  It's over Comment from : Cashstock Moneybags

u pwned Comment from : Levi rivaille

yes but your assuming that equal amounts of gold and silver will always be available in every region Comment from : qwbigbrother1

I stand corrected I guess I was wrong I was under the impression that bitcoins were not divisible Comment from : christo930

8 decimal places that is extremely divisible as an example, i received 000029087 BTC once Comment from : AnarchistMetalhead

What would Bilderberg have to say about this? Comment from : ep klep

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to exchange Bitcoins for gold or silver Bitcoin private keys can be printed on any substance and impart equivalent value on it Paper, gold, silver, rocks, it doesn't matter So what's the point of wasting the utility of metals by storing them away in a dark room for 50 years? Comment from : OverlordSolvent

What this guy is saying that the network is what gives bitcoin a value, is the exact same thing as saying that dollars have an intrinsic value because they are backed up by the productivity of the United States and that you must pay taxes in US dollars Comment from : christo930

One BIG problem bitcoin has is it's not divisible I've seen bitcoins selling for $50 or more How do you get change when what you want to buy is only 1/2 the value of a single bit coin or 3/4 of the value of 2 bit coins? Given Bitcoin's inability to grow the number bitcoins, that problem only gets worse I'm only a minute into this, so I really hope they bring this up Divisibility is a MAJOR necessity for money It's one of the reasons diamonds don't make good money Comment from : christo930

why would i want to exchange my paper money with digital money? i don't see too much of a difference in these 2 FIAT is FIAT Comment from : Abinosuke

You are messing up my Holy Trinity reference, Ok it's the Four Horsemen of Currency The Beatles if you will, The FAB 4 of international stateless trade Comment from : ronwandell

Wohooo! Just came across the Android app 'Offstream Media' which updates automatically when new episodes from gents have been published Unreal coverage on the metals keep it up! Comment from : Nick Aldridge

What you say is true in theory, not practice Lots of bitcoin hoarders released bitcoins at a certain margin (100-1000x): they cashed in Like many goldbugs do Sec: there are other rare metals like gold, or other means of value like art, but people tend to use gold It makes too much sense It's an open question if bitcoin survives as today My bet would be no: something better will always come Third, bitcoin creates value, because it's much cheaper than rare metals or fiat to trade with Comment from : Maciano Van der Laan

here is a bitcoin wdgl2020wew@$@2rt23@35 Comment from : colinjockgraham

NOTHING has intrinsic value NOTHING! Comment from : Robert Friel

Paul, you're preaching to the choir I am anti-Bitcoin too I was just correcting an economic misconception about value that many people—who should know better—still make Comment from : Andy Jones

Div, it's all in the cryptography, do some more research on it before you make assumptions on my intelligence Comment from : jedharrisonmoore

cmon doug casey should know that there is no such thing as intrinsic value all value is derived from the subjective preferences of consumers I'm pretty sure this has been understood since bastiat Comment from : xcvsdxvsx

NOTHING has "intrinsic" value Something has a monetary or emotional or aesthetic value only when a person gives it that Comment from : Andy Jones

My concern remains that even if it is a given that it can't be regulated or counterfeited, what is there to stop the government from labeling Bitcoin users/merchants as terrorists? The entire ledger is publicly available Von NotHaus made silver coins, and was labeled as a domestic terrorist I can even see Bitcoin being used as a final excuse for the total government take over of the internet I can see Obama on the news talking about this new form of "digital terrorism" Comment from : Chidsuey

I don't think you can compare a crypto-currency to a regular business venture What do you mean by "funding"? You think some company will be able to just throw money at a bitcoin clone and capture market share? Comment from : MillionthUsername

1E8FA4Jixt7hQuMrAU6G4PqAKabEJBoFDN Comment from : paloriggs

Merchants interested merely in accepting bitcoin as one of many payment options but holding only dollars in their accounts can easily do that right now through intermediaries You don't have to hold bitcoin unless you want to You can move in and out of it to USD or any other currency This applies to anyone doing business on the internet Comment from : MillionthUsername

The characteristics of bitcoin is very much like that of stocks: There's a limited supply, the government (for the most part) can't debase its value and people can buy and sell them The main difference though is that the value of the stock is based on the productivity of the underlying company To claim bitcoin is money simply because people are using it as money is a circular argument much like people buying internet stocks simply because other people are selling them Comment from : anacap007

Up to above $200, down to $54, back up to $100, now below $70 or $80 All in one week Yeah I'm SURE people and merchants will want to accept Bitcoin for their goods and services Comment from : onemindonespirit

Value in any kind of non-monetary sense? What is the real value of gold in non-monetary sense?? $2,000?? Comment from : Niran Pravithana

The fact of the matter is that a bitcoin is easily distinguishable from a litecoin People can choose what they want to accept Saying that Bitcoin will become worthless because you can copy the system, and produce something that is easily identified as *not* a bitcoin, is like saying gold coins will become worthless because you can just mine copper and make copper coins The fact of the matter is that people can distinguish between both a bitcoin and a litecoin and a copper coin and a gold coin Comment from : Rune K Svendsen

remember: bitcoin is essentially air, there is nothing tangible about it If you think current values are sustainable and that in future there will be even more people exchanging real hard assets and services for bitcoin you are sadly mistakenbitcoins can be created in unlimited number only with a different namethere is a real difference between mcdonalds and burger king or google and yahoo or facebook and myspacethere is no difference between bitcoins and litecoinsyou are chasing air Comment from : Paul van de Loo

no but there are counterfeit gold and silver so to accept payment in them can be dangerous and besides what does gold or silver actually have in value except perception The market wil decide which cryptocurrency will rise to the top and you are right bitcoin may or may not stay on top It is great for exchange not for storage of wealth you can convert bitcoing to gold or silver at coinabulcom Comment from : jonathan norris

coinabulcom is a great place to change bitcoin into gold or silver or vice versa Comment from : jonathan norris

actually you can buy or rent housing with bitcoin google it I don't remeber the company in new york that leases with bitcoin but private people are selling houses and cars for bitcoin What will be the big change is when you can work for bitcoin if that comes bitcoin will be completly solid Comment from : jonathan norris

Giant stones HAVE actual real value - you can cut them down to small pieces and build a house! Remember, that they don't have these rocks on their island, so to get them you have to spend a lot of time and food and wood and tools, ropes etc Try to build ANYTHING using bit chains - virtual castle maybe ;-) Some people love to be revolutionaries revolutions eat their children - children remember that! Comment from : grraadd

I dont think it is a good model Firstly the founders and early adopters are holding a couple of million bitcoins waiting to cash out (ponzi intend) Secondly the system depends on hashes being computed by miners This costs money At the moment the reward are bitcoins for miners What happens if this reward is gone Thirdly it nothing but electronshumans want real backing like physical scarcity or government force Something fluffy like bits on a computer, wont cut it Comment from : Paul van de Loo

"First to market is very important"maybe but you cant deny the fact that litecoin is the exact same thing as bitcoinonly with a different namefor me that is cryptoinflationand you want to store your wealth in an instrument that might be cast aside because of a new and better cryptocurrencythis is a joke! especially because early adopters have a huge advantage over later onesyou really think that people will accept some of your bitcoin crums for their houses, stocks etc? no way! Comment from : Paul van de Loo

i agree, i find it frustrating that some people see money as an investment, if money is an investment how do you measure investments? Comment from : Uncle Scam

First to market is very important This always comes up If McDonalds is a good model, invest You don't say, "No there is going to be a Burger King and a Wendy's some day so McDonalds will fail" Comment from : ronwandell

I have to say Doug Casey nailed it at the beginning: what about namecoin, litecoin, terracoinwhy would anybody sell his house for a bitcoin in future (like the fans would like you to believe)its a jokeits just a digit and softwareeverybody can create it and with good pr and funding litecoin might overtake bitcoinlitecoin is bitcoin with a different namegold cant be copied like cryptocurrencies can Comment from : Paul van de Loo

$1000 BUCKS Comment from : quadcatfly

SILVER IS GOING DOWN TO $1000 THIS SUMMER ! Comment from : quadcatfly

On my expense As you describe pyramid schemes, everything is a pyramid scheme You have a lot of comments but I haven't read any in which you provide any example of something that doesn't suffer from the problems you describe Can you pick one problem you've mentioned with bitcoin and provide an example of something that doesn't have the problem? That will help us understand your position better Comment from : Dave Scotese

I'm not investing in Bitcoin for the same reason I didn't stockpile Beanie Babies at $200 a piece 25 years ago Eventually, someone will build a better mousetrap and Bitcoin will become about as valued as a MySpace account is today Don't be naive We're all in search of a better system than the current fiat fiasco I see a number of flaws with Bitcoin & I don't think it's the answer to the current Ponzi scheme Examine and question everything Blind faith in this could cost you a fortune Comment from : OK Boomer

Unfortunately most of them were repeating stuff that showed you didn't get what had been replied to you last time May I suggest in future you actually listen to what people are trying to tell you Anyway, best go check how many weeks' wages my bitcoin holding just went up by as more 'suckers' jumped on board ;) Seriously though if you read what I wrote I don't consider that 'earned' money and would prefer another mechanism of adoption but I can't think of oneYour 'shopping cart' isn't it! Comment from : Gareth Whelan

'99 are speculators' I believe you['re the speculator here coming out with that one! - unless you can point to a source? But even if it were true have you any idea how many USD or even gold is traded by speculators every day? Does that disqualify them from being useful for other purposes? Yay, more 'jibberish' accusations :) Yes of course all merchants that are and will accept Bitcoin henceforth are out of their minds because you're the only sane one :D Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Anyway, i must have wrote 100 commets here, i dont have anymore time It was nice talking to you and good luck with those suckers ;) Comment from : Weird Energy

You forget that 99 of all bitcoin holders are speculators that seek to profit from wild price increases No more suckeres? They SELL SELL SELL to cash out the profits and you have absolutery nothing but worthless jibberish on your computer And what merchent in their right mind would even accept bitcoin after it fell 70 in one day How do they even know how to price their products in bitcon? Comment from : Weird Energy

As I implied, but maybe I have to spell it out, when the market demands $300 or $30,000 per bitcoin and I want another bitcoin and I can not earn it by another means I will not have a problem with buying it from you even if you'd received it for nothing at the very beginning If I can use it for what I want (store of value, transfer of value) what do I care? Comment from : Gareth Whelan

You asked for explanationsYou got themYou choose to see it as jibberish which is fine I invite you and other detractors to stay away and you believe even more I am trying to find the next 'greater fool' If no more 'suckers' bought bitcoin from this moment there are enough people who have them for me to be able to travel to many places without risking confiscation at customs and could use them to buy what I want I'd rather more adoption so I can get paid in and pay rent in bitcoins but hey Comment from : Gareth Whelan

"But nobody was hurt by it" My offer still stands, by some bitcoins from me for 300 each What? You dont want? Who cares that you pay more lets just make the deal cause nobody is hurt anyway, i get the cash from you and you get the bitcoin and everybody is happy Comment from : Weird Energy

And that contributes to the argument how? Comment from : Gareth Whelan

You know you're talking to a conspiracy theorist when 'stay away' sounds to them like a pusher! Why would he want a whole bitcoin if it is the value of his house? He only needs enough to be able to do what he wants with it, including possibly earning enough of it by trading goods or services to buy a house There is an argument that early adopters 'earned' the increase in value through popularity I don't buy it when as you say it is potentially immense But nobody was hurt by it Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Gold in itself is far from ideal, especially since its been demonietized, but it still beats the heck out of bitcoin Comment from : Weird Energy

And the difference between this and gold is that gold has some obscure industrial use that gives it 'intrinsic value' meaning it can never be worth zero But if it lost its popularity as a store of value its price based on industrial demand would be minuscule Gold as well as fiat currencies as well as Bitcoin all depend on perceived/market value But your refusal/failure to see/accept this is no excuse for projecting your own desire for ill-gotten gains onto bitcoin originators/early adopters Comment from : Gareth Whelan

You see, thats exactly it Bitcoin has no hard link to real assets that would set its price and it has no intrinsic value in itself Its "value" is determined by how much is somebody willing to pay for it at any given time And this amount is determined by how much faith this somebody has that he can sell it to a greater fool down the road If suckers join the price rises, ran out of suckers, price collapses, possibly to zero So how is this sound money anyway? Comment from : Weird Energy

Other than I'm in as much as I want to be for now why would I buy that from you when I can currently buy for less than half? How long are you prepared to keep that offer on the table? I may well want to buy it from you in due course ;) Comment from : Gareth Whelan

I did indeed agree with you - which was why I couldn't understand why you were still arguing about it! Comment from : Gareth Whelan

I just pointed out how ridicilous was his argument with wich he tried to give bitcoin intrinsic value and you even agreed with me very nice :) Comment from : Weird Energy

Yes, exaclty i would just love to rip you off with this scheme so you would understand once and for all what this scheme is all about It recovers because there are enough people who still belive that more suckers will join and so they can rip them off But it cant last long The fact that it dropped from 266 to 59 on a matter of 1 day shows exactly what its all about I have proposal to you You belive that this thing will go much higher right? I can sell you some bitcoin for 300! Agree? Comment from : Weird Energy

It was the intrinsic value argument you were making that I responded to (well that was the bit of substance I could extract from the vitriol) Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Shall I spell out the essence of the difference to you?No, not yet anyway ;) I'll make you work harder first! I said everything that spreads through a network, including Bitcoin looks like a pyramid But a pyramid or Ponzi scheme is set up with the sole purpose of defrauding participants and will inevitably eventually fail with the vast majority losing out As you say these schemes are not sustainableI believe a student learns better if the teacher gives clues but lets the student work it out! Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Excellent, finally the leopard shows its stripes So you'd prefer it was a pyramid scheme and that you'd been in early enough to be one of those ripping off others? Nice one :) One of the reasons I am pleased the recent drop happened is because the 'get rich quick' posse and many who, like you would have, wanted to ride on the back of latecomers will have gotten a short sharp shock! Why is it now beginning to recover unless there's more to it than that? Show me a pyramid scheme that did that! Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Im sorry, but didnt explain anything read my question again and give it another try So, how is a scheme that gravitates more and more and more real wealth towards "elites" who were in early and away from those who join later not a pyramid scheme? And how is it sustainable? Comment from : Weird Energy

I didnt say that money has to absolutely have intrinsic value (though it has its advantages) What i said is why wouldnt we price 1 bitcoin in basket of goods and services (whatever the current price of that basket is in fiat) and allow lets say one way conversion from fiat to bitcon at that price? This way it would be fair and bitcoin would more like sound money But im sure you will oppose, because that wouldnt leave room for pyramid like speculative gains and getting someting for nothing Comment from : Weird Energy

I agree It's refreshing isn't it? Someone once asked me if I'd ever noticed true professionals/experts in any field who hold when they encounter another of an opposing position are usually courteous and are genuinely interested in why the other holds the position they do It is those who do not hold confidence out of understanding of their own position, let alone the other's, who tend to be most shrill! Comment from : Gareth Whelan

No,I answered as I did because I had ploughed through your failure to listen to others trying to explainWhen all arguments are met with 'It's a pyramid and I will believe it no matter what anybody says' I fail to see an incentive to explain I can see how it could legitimately look like tulip mania and I responded accordinglyIf I can't see why someone who passionately believes a fish to be an elephant sees it so how do I start to explain - especially if they demonstrate they're not listening? Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Like always, Casey is the only one that make sense when talking Always pleasure to hear something from him Comment from : Ivaylo I

I said "please somebody explain" and all you could answer is "you dont understand, you dont understand, you dont understand", wich only proves that you cant actually argue that its not a pyramid scheme Comment from : Weird Energy

No, I would have thought my use of the word 'teleported' would have given a clue I was being somewhat hypothetical Let me try again: A finite number of tulips: ie all the tulip bulbs that would ever exist were in existence at that moment; Infinitely divisable: ie you could chop them up into the tiniest pieces and still be able to tell that it was indisputably a tulip bulb and what fraction of a tulip bulb it was The other bit you got Comment from : Gareth Whelan

Yay, something on which you're correct ;) I don't understand why so many intelligent bitcoiners are afraid to concede the 'intrinsic value' aspect Economists since Aristotle claimed that any money needed to have a use other than exchange for which it could be sold All evidence till Bitcoin suggests they were correct Does this rule mean Bitcoin can not 'become' money Time will tell but signs to date indicate Aristotle may not have foreseen all eventualities! You disagree? Fine, stay away! Comment from : Gareth Whelan

No I'm afraid you completely missed the pointTry reading it againEven if I could time-travel I wouldn't be able to change the properties of tulip bulbs as I suggestedAs for selling, some indeed look to dollar evaluation to judge the value of their assets including Bitcoin For me other than very occasionally such as the last few days when the price of everything I might want to buy in my life just quadrupled the rest of the time everything is becoming cheaper :) If it's not for you, no prob Comment from : Gareth Whelan

And also, the way Jon Matonis tries somehow to give bitcoin intrinsic value by saing that its not 1 bitcoin on its own but the fact that collective of people or network use i all together etc But by his definition EVERY fiat currency have intrinsic value and even much more than bitcoin because tremendously bigger netwoek uses dollars than bitcoins Comment from : Weird Energy

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